Curse

Numa Pompilius · Jun 14, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

How about dropping the skill point, but instead making each capture signet cost 5 plat?

Creates a big-ass gold-sink and removes the skillpoint problem in one blow. And, more than likely, creates endless complaints here at GWguru.

Phaedrus · Jun 14, 2005, 01:47 AM // 01:47

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Originally Posted by Aug

So delete your PvP character and choose different armor.

Since you're missing the point, I'll illustrate with an example.

Elementalist armor gives bonuses vs. certain elements. An elementalist would be wise to change his or her armor according to the strategy of the other team.

Likewise, why wouldn't a warrior want both +physical and +elemental armor? You can't do that mid-battle with PvP characters. If you don't use that strategy, it's fine...but then, every little bit of strategy helps when trying to hold the Hall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

How about dropping the skill point, but instead making each capture signet cost 5 plat?

Why bother asking people to put effort into capturing elite skills if you're just going to make it increasingly easier? I think that's what the debate is about...some people want zero difficulty, while others are fine with at least some amount.

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eA-Zaku · Jun 14, 2005, 01:59 AM // 01:59

I don't see why there's any discussion on this after the point where someone pointed out that you could simply load up on free SoC's and capture all the skills you needed from bosses.

Granamyr · Jun 14, 2005, 05:15 PM // 17:15

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I think Elite should cost skill points and Normal skill shouldn't cost skill points. This is only when you are using SOC.

Brilliant compromise, I accept. ANet, make it so.

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How about dropping the skill point, but instead making each capture signet cost 5 plat?

This is trading one needless grind for another.

I don't see how eliminating this one needless inconvenience gives you all of your skills instantly and somehow makes the game super-easy. Most bosses use about 3 skills (if that) and a majority of those are rather basic such as Ranger bosses using Troll Unguent, Mesmers using Ether Feast, etc. To suggest that someone will be doing mass captures on one boss is ludicrous.

In addition, boss locations and their skill load-out are not well known. Throw in the random spawn factor and the variety of professions and capturing skills rapidly becomes one of the more difficult endeavors of the game. I suggest eliminating the skill point for the SoC and somehow this all becomes instantaneous and easy!? I don't get it.

To remain consistent, you pro-skill pointers would have to argue that quests should cost skill points. Many quests have you go out and kill some boss and you are rewarded with 2 or 3 skills. How is that any different than going out and capturing skills? In fact, it's harder to capture them because you have a limited skill bar.

I would think ANet and the community would want to encourage skill capturing. Why do you think they made the SoC half-price? Did doing so instantly make the process super-easy and instantaneous? Were you all as vehemently opposed to the price reduction as you are to my idea? One reduces gold farming, mine reduces xp farming.

It's win-win and still no one has been able to demonstrate the harm to the game or the community.

Shadow_Avenger · Jun 14, 2005, 05:21 PM // 17:21

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Originally Posted by Ninlawen

That would be pretty fun, but you'd have people going into missions with nothing but signets of capture so they can grab every skill from every boss because they refuse to spend their skill points. I think free SoCs would require a semi-revamp of the skill acquiring system.

Not really, basically each skill you use could add to you skill point tally / earned. Once you hit 190 skill points, traders would have to monitor how many SoC you have and how many you could buy. Would not be hard, and I cant see many players actually reaching the 200 skill point cap this side of christmas.

Mystical · Jun 14, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Remove the skill point and raise the initial price 10 fold. You got your "free" SoC and a big money sink. Deal.

Weezer_Blue · Jun 14, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Why do Signets of Capture(Looting) require skill points? Well because Arena Net made it so. Deal with it.

Wow! That's exactly what an intelligent, informative post looks like. Whipe the fanboyism from your eyes, and take a clearer look at the picture. Skill Points = Grind. Nothing more.

Deagol · Jun 14, 2005, 05:26 PM // 17:26

I'd like to get rid of both skill points *and* skill trainers...

Before Ascension, you should only get signet of capture from quests. Lots of quests, maybe with the first in pre-searing. This would help differentiate characters early in the game.

After Ascension, you would automatically get all skills possesed by any boss you kill. I mean, you would have proven that you could kill it. What additional fun does it give to prove that you can kill it multiple times (and kill other stuff as well multiple times to get skill points)?

Yes, PvE would be shorter. But the content and end result would be the same, and ArenaNet doesn't get a monthly fee, so I don't see their motivation for artifically stretching the content.

codemonkey · Jun 14, 2005, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

How about dropping the skill point, but instead making each capture signet cost 5 plat?

Creates a big-ass gold-sink and removes the skillpoint problem in one blow. And, more than likely, creates endless complaints here at GWguru.

This is, by far, the most relavent response to this thread ;-) Not "do away with", but "make different."

Your concept solves a few people's "issues" and fixes the issue where people just have too much cash.

As of now, I rather have the skill point system because I've got extra skill points (as most people do), but I'm getting to the point where I'm level 20 and only have 4 skill points open (Ranger/Monk) and currently I'm skipping "pet" skills hoping to capture better elites or defensive/offensive skills.

And to cover the real issue here: Do not assume that "simply removing" something in a massive multiplayer game will not change game dynamic. That's got ignorance written all over it. A "simple" change like removing skill points from capture signets can and probably will impact more then you will tend to imagine.

CodeMonkey
PS: If SoC's were "Free" of skill points the first thing I would do is only buy the top 8 skills I'd need until I got to LA. Then go get the rest for free from easy kill leaders from the start of post-searing ;-)

Shadow_Avenger · Jun 14, 2005, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by eA-Zaku

I don't see why there's any discussion on this after the point where someone pointed out that you could simply load up on free SoC's and capture all the skills you needed from bosses.

Where you get the free ones? I know of one mission where you get one, but there rest have to be purchase.

It would make the capture / obtaining of skills less of a 'grind' so to speak.
Why not let a player load up on 8 SoC and go capture skills. What difference would it make? How would it be an exploit, simply put it wouldn't be it would be a choice.
The only thing I would add is that they would need to standardise the price, maybe 500 gp each. You could purchase them at a reasonable rate.
You will still have to hunt for stuff and it would make capturing skills for secondard class change after ascention more viable to creating another character.

The only other aspect I would like to have in conjunction with this is more quests for ascended characters, instead of xp rewards, offer a skill point.
Skill point system as stands could still be used to purchase skills.
In fact in some cases its better to use skill point than SoC as the SoC costs more than the trainer is charging to teach the skill.

Granamyr · Jun 14, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Before Ascension, you should only get signet of capture from quests. Lots of quests, maybe with the first in pre-searing. This would help differentiate characters early in the game.

Another great idea. A little extreme but cool nonetheless.

Quote:

And to cover the real issue here: Do not assume that "simply removing" something in a massive multiplayer game will not change game dynamic. That's got ignorance written all over it. A "simple" change like removing skill points from capture signets can and probably will impact more then you will tend to imagine.

It will change the game dynamic for the better. You'll notice I've been pleading for people to show me the harm....not denying that it could exist. Saying that making changes to a game can cause a change in the "game dynamic" (whatever that is) is pointing out the obvious. Show me the harm!

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If SoC's were "Free" of skill points the first thing I would do is only buy the top 8 skills I'd need until I got to LA. Then go get the rest for free from easy kill leaders from the start of post-searing

And how is this a bad thing? Better yet, how is it worse than the existing methods of skill acquisition?

Deathlord · Jun 14, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Dude, you don't need a reasonable argument, if you can't figure out why they cost skill points then you need to play this game a little more. SOC can capture both elite and regular skills. Regular skills cost a skill point and money, so why should something that can capture both REGULAR AND ELITE be free? Heck, they're already cheaper than BUYING regular skills, i barely see any logic in making SOC free. If you made SOC's free then you just killed the ENTIRE skill point system, I really fail to see how people that make ideas just for their own purposes deny the mind from all reason.

1. Variety- If EVERYTHING were free then every character would have every skill up to that area. There's no variety or seperate builds because everyone would use the same one since everybody has every skill. If you were limited to 75 out 150 skills then there would be seperate builds atleast.

2. It kills every purpose of trying to level past 20- Who would level past 20 anymore? They'd just go kill a few monsters, get some money, and wala, he has a new elite skill.

3. It WILL change the game dynamic- Yes, the dynamic will definetly change, and it won't be for the better. There will be no competition in the game because there are certain builds that will rule over others, when everybody is availible to these builds since they have most of the skills then then alot of pvp will be based on luck.

4. This is what the game was made for- Even if it isn't a harm, this isn't you're game. Suggestions are things to improve the game, not modify it so much that it has a completely alternate feeling.

5. The system works, what's the point of changing it?- My warrior has beaten the games and played for atleast a hundred or so hours. I've done 90+% of the skills quests and am satifised with the fact I still have about 10 skill points to capture elite/buy regular skills with. I don't have every skill in the game but i'm satisfied. I am sure ANet wanted it this way, variety and competition.

6. If it doesn't make everyone the same, then it'll make a bridge so huge that ANet will be too biased towards rich people. Rich people would end up with every single elite skill just because they can afford it, the poor people hardly have a way of making money, why should we limit them to the point they can't even enjoy the games pvp because a majority of the skills are not availible to them.

You can get alot of people to support this idea, but unless ANET changes ownership or something, it simply won't happen.

Mystical · Jun 14, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

If someone just loaded up on SoCs, they wouldn't be very smart in the first place. You have to kill the boss to get the skills now, so unless you have a party willing to just coast you through the fight, you're defenseless. Not to mention bosses are nearly always a higher level then you are, so it takes everyone in the group to do something, expessially with monk bosses.

codemonkey · Jun 14, 2005, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by HH-

If someone just loaded up on SoCs, they wouldn't be very smart in the first place. You have to kill the boss to get the skills now, so unless you have a party willing to just coast you through the fight, you're defenseless. Not to mention bosses are nearly always a higher level then you are, so it takes everyone in the group to do something, expessially with monk bosses.

I wager that I can kill 90% of the bosses (non-monk usually) with the Tom the brawler [henchmen], and the fighter [henchmen] with some support from Orion the mage [henchment] and have my skill buildout be: SoC, SoC, SoC, Soc, Raise Dead, Heal Other, Troll Ungent.

Of course I've never even considered more then a single SoC at a time. Must be the way I play the game... I'm usually on the boarder between taking a SoC at all when I know I can use a dual shot, or ignite arrows/poison arrows, instead.

CodeMonkey

Mystical · Jun 14, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by codemonkey

I wager that I can kill 90% of the bosses (non-monk usually) with the Tom the brawler [henchmen], and the fighter [henchmen] with some support from Orion the mage [henchment] and have my skill buildout be: SoC, SoC, SoC, Soc, Raise Dead, Heal Other, Troll Ungent.

That's thinking

What I'm trying to get at is the people who think everyone will get all decked out in SoCs. All 8 slots full with them. They're in for a rude awaking when they can't do anything when that boss's health hasn't dropped below 50% and thier team near dead.

I think the system will work if the skill point is removed and the price set alot higher. Four SoCs and 4 useful skills? If you can afford it and it works, all the more too you.

codemonkey · Jun 14, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by HH-

That's thinking

What I'm trying to get at is the people who think everyone will get all decked out in SoCs. All 8 slots full with them. They're in for a rude awaking when they can't do anything when that boss's health hasn't dropped below 50% and thier team near dead.

I think the system will work if the skill point is removed and the price set alot higher. Four SoCs and 4 useful skills? If you can afford it and it works, all the more too you.

Personally I'm all for limiting the SoC's down to one like an Elite skill, since its pretty powerful of a tool (to extract spells from dead bosses). However I am not sure if allowing multiple really brings down game play or hurts others (which is usually my only drive for changing things).

Esp. since the having 4 or more of them makes you much LESS powerful (where elite skills do the opposite). Ok, I change my mine. Don't limit SoC's to one

Thanks for allowing me to talk myself through that one...

CodeMonkey

Quintus · Jun 14, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Why do Signets of Capture(Looting) require skill points? Well because Arena Net made it so. Deal with it.

Why do sigils cost 100 Platinum? Why isn't there a Sigil trader? Why is there only one sigil per HoH win? Well because Arena Net made it so. Deal with it.

Oh wait! Anet realised that the old sigil system was inadequate, and they changed it. Just like the current skill point/SoC system is inadequate, and they should change it.

Granamyr · Jun 14, 2005, 06:15 PM // 18:15

I know you guys have been out there capturing skills before so I'm puzzled as to why you think loading up with 8 or even 4 SoC's is a problem. What's the maximum number of skills you've captured off of one boss? I'd say 2 if you were lucky. Most of them don't even have more than 3 and they're usually the common ones.

Deathlord, I know you spent a lot of time on that response but I can't make any sense of it. You might want to go edit again (3rd time's the charm) and quote what you're responding to. I'll assume that English is not your native tongue but I'm multilingual so post in whatever language is easiest for you and I'll do my best at translating. I aim to please.

Deagol · Jun 14, 2005, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Adding SoC as a gold sink is brilliant. Grinding for gold isn't really different from grinding for skill points, but since grinding for skill points adds a surplus of gold to the economy, the current system creates inflation.

I still like my suggestion better (get rid of both skill points and skill trainers) but the above is a much smaller change.

Shadow_Avenger · Jun 14, 2005, 10:16 PM // 22:16

You can only capture 1 skill per boss character, so loading up on SoC would be fairly pointless and difficulty to pull off, finding 8 bosses on a run with skill to capture, possible, but not easy.

DeathLord, please re read your own post, you state that there is only one uber build, If there is A.net will nerf it asap, as it goes against everything in the game.
Rather than Nay say, think, if SoC was 500gp then it would cost more than it costs to train in basic skills.
How can the existing trainer system becomeredundant with free SoC, simply put it can't, an example is for my necromance Verata's Gaze ,Verata's Sacrifice ,Verata's Aura I have found a trainer for the skills, but I have explored nearly everywhere with my ascended / game complete / got 10 elite skills necro and I can not find a boss that uses these skills.